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Author Topic: Mr. Lin's Foreplay III and ongoing modifications...  (Read 1911 times)
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InfernoSTi
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« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2011, 08:24:52 PM »

Very nice build, Mr. Lin!  The boutique parts really set it apart from other builds.  I'm also enjoying the discussion regarding resistors.  I recently tried both the Kiwame "greens" and PRP "reds" (carbon film) in my Stereomour.  I settled on the PRPs as I felt they were a little more transparent. Here are my comments on the two resistors from the Stereomour thread:

Just a quick update: I switched out my 100K resistors on the RCA input jacks to red bodied PRP resistors (Precsion Resistive Products 9372 audio series).  These are a little more "clear" and a little less "soft" but who can really say with this kind of tweak!  I just wanted to try out a second high quality resistor to see what I thought.  I can recommend the Kiwame "greens" if you like a smooth, groovy kind of sound and the PRP "reds" if you like a clean, precise kind of sound.  Both sound great, by the way...they just lean in different directions to my ear.

I'm enjoying this thread very much!

John
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John Kessel
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« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2011, 10:17:05 AM »

Well documented Mr. Linn,
Great pic's! For me "seeing" what your talking about really helps.
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Regards,
John
Extended Foreplay 3 / 300B Paramount's / BassZilla open baffle / Thiel CS 1.6/ Velodyne HGS-10 / Music Streamer 2 / Lenovo Y560-Win7-Pandora-Foobar 2000
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« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2011, 05:37:48 AM »

Pardon my slowness in responding, I haven't been on the internet as much for the last few days.

My question at this point - does anyone know of some other places where replacing the resistors might possibly be beneficial?  Aside from the Sweetest Whispers, as you all might have noticed I've left those stock for now.  

I thank all of you for the kind words.  Now I'll address some of the individual comments and questions:

Lovely job Mr. Lin, I really enjoy seeing all the boutique parts in your build. I've been tempted by those beautiful red Jantzen caps (they got a good write up on Humble Homemade HiFi), but so far I've just played it safe and went with Obbligatos / Mundorfs or Ampohms, all of which I have gotten good results with. As PJ stated, people avoid the carbon comps due to noise and drifting which takes place over the years. Carbon films, especially the Kiwames, can get close to that "sweet warmth" of carbon comps without the issues mentioned. I can be a good idea to figure out if a resistor is in the signal path before you replace it, as boutique parts are not cheap and you want to maximize your investment, but the shotgun approach works too Wink

Do you plan on any additional upgrades? Perhaps a stepped attenuator or a choke in the power supply? Cheesy

Sometime down the line I would like to try one of the more significant types of upgrades.  Right now I don't know much about the area of upgrading to better stepped attenuators, but I will get to it, and I don't know anything at all about putting a choke in the power supply.  

I'm doing what's described and pictured in this thread since I can't afford anything much more expensive at the moment, and for me it's a lot of fun.  I'm confident people on this forum are very empathetic about that last part!  And although I'll probably be saying this a lot on the Bottlehead forum - I sure am glad I bought the kits years ago when I was able to afford them, even though I'm only now using them.

I will suggest tantalum resistors if one is looking for the best sonics in the signal path.

I'm trying those too, one example obviously being the Shinkoh ones in those last pictures, with which I've replaced the Kiwames.

I've seen those green Kiwame resistors pop up in various discussions, and I've eyeballed them as a possibility for when I upgrade my gear. It sounds like the warnings about increased thermal/shot noise don't quite hold true (the manufacturer even claims that these are quieter than metal films, though I would be skeptical of such a claim). However, I wonder about excessive warmth or a "veiling" of the sound. Metal films are supposed to be more transparent. To the OP (Mr. Lin): the Kiwames were swapped out of your amp. Any strong feelings about them?

Tantalums seem like the ideal choice, but they are rather expensive....

Well I'd like to be able to tell you I have much of a valid opinion on the results I may or may not have gotten with the Kiwames (that almost sounds like a statement made with the oversight of a lawyer...), but since there's a significant amount of time between removing the old resistors and installing the new, and also because I didn't use them for long to see if I noticed things over a longer period of time (like a week or two), I can't.  Like I said, I thought the sound got a little sweeter and warmer, but I could have been fooling myself.  I'm also not sure if where I put them is a place in the circuit where one would ever be likely to hear possible changes between resistors.  

As for the tantalums being expensive - yes relatively speaking they certainly are, but I placed one order for everything seen here all at once (and more than what's in this thread that I haven't used yet either), so adding a couple $3-$4.00 resistors to the tab wasn't a big deal.  And many brands/models were less expensive, a lot less in fact.  But I would be hesitant to put these in a circuit where I'd need something like 30 or 40 of them!

Very nice build, Mr. Lin!  The boutique parts really set it apart from other builds.  I'm also enjoying the discussion regarding resistors.  I recently tried both the Kiwame "greens" and PRP "reds" (carbon film) in my Stereomour.  I settled on the PRPs as I felt they were a little more transparent. Here are my comments on the two resistors from the Stereomour thread:

Just a quick update: I switched out my 100K resistors on the RCA input jacks to red bodied PRP resistors (Precsion Resistive Products 9372 audio series).  These are a little more "clear" and a little less "soft" but who can really say with this kind of tweak!  I just wanted to try out a second high quality resistor to see what I thought.  I can recommend the Kiwame "greens" if you like a smooth, groovy kind of sound and the PRP "reds" if you like a clean, precise kind of sound.  Both sound great, by the way...they just lean in different directions to my ear.

I'm enjoying this thread very much!

John

Thanks for the quote from your other thread John, that information is certainly interesting to me.  I actually have a pair of PRP resistors that were part of the above-mentioned purchase, but I'm going to eventually use them in my Wright 200C tube phono preamp, in order to change the input impedance from 47k ohms to something much lower for a MC cartridge I have.  They (PRP) certainly claim extremely tight tolerances for their resistors.  

Well documented Mr. Linn,
Great pic's! For me "seeing" what your talking about really helps.

I'm that way too, that's why I appreciated the manuals for the FP III and Paramours, for example.  Really glad you enjoyed it!
« Last Edit: November 18, 2011, 05:43:30 AM by Mr. Lin » Logged

David Obal: New to Bottlehead.

Playing at the moment:
Naim CD5i-2
Foreplay III
Pro-Ject Head Box SE (modded)
Grado 325i headphones
Homemade cables
Grainger49
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« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2011, 10:29:34 AM »

David,

Sorry but 17 pretty long posts into the thread I'm not inclined to read all of them again I did before but have slept since then erasing some of my memory.  The FP III is a serious upgrade from the FP 2.  Odd we used Arabic numbers for the first two and Roman numerals for the third.... And I digress, again.

Of course you should consider the Extended upgrade for a great number of reasons.  The first is it replaces 4 resistors.  That is not as simple a statement as it seems.  Those four resistors are not linear in their function because of where they are in the circuit.  Better resistors are a 10% gain compared to the C4S circuit they are replaced with.

The Extended also goes all the way to a fully dual mono power supply for the high voltage (B+).  One channel can not interact with the other as voltage and current are needed by each channel. 

Each channel's B+ is regulated by one of the triodes in the new tube supplied that replaces the 0D3.  Both channels have soft recovery diodes feeding a CRCRC filter.

And finally they include the most favorite output caps, Auricaps. 

There are other spots for upgrades those being the (i'm pretty sure) previously mentioned resistors in the signal path.  The Sweetest Whispers or a DACT or clone stepped attenuator.  I prefer the S5 for simplicity - only two resistors in the signal path per channel at a time.

S5 Link:

http://www.siteswithstyle.com/VoltSecond/12_posistion_shunt/12_Position_Pure_Shunt.html

This man knows noise problems and can really fix them.  I suggest consuming that page.

The choke in the power supply has lower impact after the Extended upgrade but is a nice addition before the Extended upgrade.  There is no reason to remove it when going to the Extended.  So since a Hammond 155J is cheaper than the Extended you might go with it first.
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Grainger Morrison,

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Remember, YOU are the only one who needs to be happy with the sound of your system.

Eros (Mods Have Begun!)/FP-2/Paramour 1/upgrades to all - PS Audio Regenerator, Triangle Zerius Speakers, BA Sub
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« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2011, 11:35:38 AM »

Yeah ... but you lose the cool lavender glow of the OD3  :-P
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Desmond G.
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« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2011, 09:30:25 PM »

You seriously took the words right out of my mouth!  It's illogical, I know, but that OD3 looks so cool...

I won't be able to afford the Extended Foreplay kit any time soon, but I might one day do it.  For now I'm pretty much thrilled with how the FPIII sounds, and I'm sure at least some of the minor modifications I've made to it have yielded some improvements.  It's hard to tell what does what though. 
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David Obal: New to Bottlehead.

Playing at the moment:
Naim CD5i-2
Foreplay III
Pro-Ject Head Box SE (modded)
Grado 325i headphones
Homemade cables
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« Reply #21 on: December 23, 2011, 05:26:38 AM »

Ive read the section comparing the different FPIII versions.  Seems like the conclusion was that the stock FPIII was better than any upgraded versions of the pervious FP's.  For me, very good is often much more than good enough.  I cant really afford the extended upgrade right now either and I'm very happy with the stock FPIII as is.  I've pretty much settled on the tubes (6SN7 in mine) for FPIII and rest of the system. FPIII is modded lightly with a few cap upgrades, everything nice and quiet now, even with the turntable,  and just think that OD3 is way too cool.   
Audio money would probably be best spent on this system by a turntable upgrade anyway.  Either a better table or more likely upgrading the one I have.  It's a very decent table actually but it could be upgraded for a good bit less than the cost of the FP extended upgrade.  The only thing is that Im actually very partial to the Shure M97xe cart and the old Pickering XV-15 / Stanton 681 as well.   So with that in mind, turntable upgrades may yield diminishing returns anyway if fine detail and subtleties are the main benefits.  Anyway, Im happy with the system and while Im sure the extended is a worthy sonic upgrade, it's low on the list right now.  The TT is the main thing in the back of my mind regarding this system and there are too many real bills and other needs coming up here in the next month or so.  Im fortunate to be able to have more than enough as it stands for ample musical enjoyment. :-)
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Desmond G.
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« Reply #22 on: December 23, 2011, 03:36:17 PM »

My Foreplay III is still stock and its hard for me to imagine that it could get any better.  I have no doubt that the upgrade will improve things since that has been my experience with all of the BH products and upgrades but I just love my Foreplay the way it is.

Someday I may build another with the upgrade just to see.
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Randall Massey
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