In search of why vinyl lovers love vinyl

[Grainger49]

 .  .  .    I take my platter off and prop the scale up on a piece of butchers block that I planed to be the right thickness with the scale I have.  

Excellent idea (my emphasis above), I wish I had thought of it.

[ChrisM]

Hi All,
I continue to have interesting times on this path of exploring why vinyl lovers love vinyl (and the related question:  does it takes a lot more bucks to experience the inherent beauty of vinyl as compared to digital?).

When I had last posted I had just purchased a Shure M97 XE and was trying it out on my D2.  I taught myself some basics of aligning the cartridge.  It sounded a lot better than the old Pickering unit that was on the tonearm.  After a lot of listening I concluded the sound was good but it did not challenge digital playback on my system.  I put pursuit of this question away for a while and pondered the whole thing.
Over summer  I made my annual pilgrimage to my origins of central New York Stave to visit family and friends.  On this trip I managed a visit with Art Dudley who happens to have settled in my obscure home town.  I’ve been want to hear the potential of vinyl and was treated to a great vinyl demo by Art.  He’s a terrific person.  I came away with some insights on what kinds of changes to explore next. 
I had a suspicion perhaps the phono stage in my Onkyo pre/pro is a weak link in my audio chain but with no way to test this.  In Vermont where I live I don’t even have any friends or colleagues who are listening to vinyl to borrow a phono stage from.  So I invested  in a Music Fidelity V-LPS and heard an immediate improvement.  One weak link was improved some.  Reviews of that unit suggested it should be capable of show much of the potential of vinyl and I think it does pretty well. 

The next change I made was to buy a used Denon DL-103 cartridge to try.  I am such a novice to vinyl that I didn’t realize at first it is a MC cartridge design.  Fortunately the V-LPS can handle MC or MM.  It didn’t sound very impressive at the beginning.  Further research taught me this low compliance suspension cartridge wants a high mass tone arm.  I tried various methods of adding mass to my D2 tonearm and improved the sound a lot. 

The most recent change came when conversing with a co-work about exploring vinyl.  The guy worked in a hifi shop in Boston when he was in college.  He has a few interesting pieces of old hifi stuff.  He offered to let me take his vintage Empire 598 Troubador home and play with if.  It needed a new belt.  After a lot of fiddling with it I got it to play OK with the old Audio-Technica Alpha cartridge that was in it.  Sounded OK.  I put the Shure on it and it sounded better.  During that time I had read about it having a medium to high mass tonearm and being a possible good combination with my DL-103.  I finally got my courage up to try that.  And there results have been good.  This humble setup has begun to sound surprisingly musical.  Vinyl recordings of older performances like 50’s era jazz sound engaging.  Even mono recordings sound more satisfying (and I don’t care as much what chair I sit in when listening). 

I think I am beginning to hear the potential of analog and vinyl play back after more than a year of meandering in the forest.  I can also see it need not require uber-expernsive gear to glimpse it.  Good thing too, I’m not about to buy that $7000 Gerard 301 on Audiongon if that’s the only way I could hear it.

I just thought I would share this experience in case there's anyone out there who has wondered some of the same things as I.

Chris

[Paully]

You got to sit down with Art Dudley?  How neat is that?  I can't stand his politics, but man, that would still be really, really cool!  Well done!

And yes, I think enjoying vinyl is indeed more expensive.  You can do it cheaply but from my perspective you won't get the same sound for $400 out of vinyl that you do get out of digital.  Actually, from my perspective, not by a long shot.  But it seems to me that it can still be close to its potential for not a ton more money.  Especially if you buy used gear or build kits.  Phono Pre (Seduction), decent turntable (used), cleaning system (Nitty Gritty/ Gem Dandy), and a decent cartridge (do beware of used cartridges) and you don't have to spend oodles on any of those.

But hey!  Reading your last post I am struck by how far you have come.  I think you are close to being able to offer me suggestions, instead of vice versa.  Actually maybe past.

[ChrisM]

I had been curious at what cost can satisfying sound be had for vinyl vs. digital.  I would agree vinyl is more expensive.  My preconception had been that for vinyl the cost was so high as to be impractical unless one was already in possession of a huge vinyl collection (not my case).  I now think that the practical equipment cost of good vinyl sound is not that extreme.  I agree with your points how to approach that and I have some kit building experience already.  A tube phone preamp in my future....?  I hope one day.

But in analog it also seems quality in can be heard as quality out and the quality of the vinyl itself is important.  Reliable good quality vinyl can easily be expensive or like panning for gold nuggets (which can be FUN).

Oh yes, a good cleaning system would be really nice.

[Paully]

Vinyl makes more sense dependent upon the kind of music you are into.  In the business world it is fixed versus variable costs.  Your fixed costs are less in digital and more in vinyl.  But if you can spread those fixed costs over tons of 25 cent records than you are in better shape and can come out ahead.   And that depends on the kind of music you are into.  If you like classical music or maybe 70's rock, you are golden.  I happen to be into 80's to present alternative, not so great.  So not only is the equipment more expensive but so is the music.  But vinyl, as I said a while ago, is also a fun thing to do and adds another dimension beyond the music.  So for me it is still worth it, but that is a conclusion that I can see others not coming to.

[Thoburn]

One of my favorites is Jennifer Warnes "The Well". I have listened to the CD so much that it is the one I take with me to audition equipment. 'The Well' was recently issued as a 'collectors' edition. It comes in a wood box with a nice emblem with the serial number on it. It also has a booklet about the album (I didn't know that the well is acutally a swimming hole in Texas). The 3 LP set in 45 rpm is down right fantastic. It was my Christmas present to myself as it was very expensive. I guess my point is that 'really good' vinyl is expensive, but if you love it you don't care. Beans and rice for dinner is a small price to pay for such a magnificent album.

[Grainger49]

Multiple LP, 45 RPM sets are pretty high priced.  I have 3 or 4, IIRC.  Some albums mean that much to me.  Fleetwood Mac's Rumours, Cowboy Junkies' Trinity Sessions and Dave Bruebeck Quartet's Time Out come to mind immediately.  Maybe I only have 3.

These are worth the triple price that they charge for them.  But you got to love the album first.

[Thoburn]

Rumors is definately on my wish list. I better not wait too long like I did for Waltz for Debbie. As near as I can tell, Waltz is now sold out.

[Grainger49]

The German pressing is already getting scarce and the price has gone up $5 since I bought it.  (Amazon best price $25 new)  I'd say don't delay.  Two thick vinyl LPs for $25 is a decent price.

[ramicio]

I tried vinyl.  I didn't care for it much.  For one, I didn't care to spend a whole lot on a table.  I had a newer Technics table with a p-mount cartridge, but replaced it with one from Audio Technica.  I didn't like having to get the speed adjusted.  I mainly listened to newer music, so the whole pop, click, and warm sound wasn't a concern to me, I wanted accuracy.  It really presents a problem with newer music when they don't even bother to make a different master for vinyl, and the vinyl itself was just as loudly mastered as the CD.  To me, that kind of stuff made it sound worse than the CD counterpart.  Older stuff was decent to listen to, because I expected that vinyl sound, but in the end I was digitizing it, anyway.  I constantly got out of control distortion on any kind of sibilant consonants, even with older music.  Rap was the worst, since they seem to like to make out with the microphones, where as in the good old days, such as The Doors, they just stood back and yelled like a mad man.  I got better quality from every digital version than what I could record without spending big bucks and butt loads of time.  Just think, the studio has already spent the time digitizing it with high-end equipment.  I also like that digital sounds the same every time I play it.  I don't have to keep a computer file free of dust.  I don't have to worry about a stylus wearing out.  As someone said, it's mainly about the type of music you listen to.  I prefer accuracy and the same sound every time I play a song.  It was a fun adventure, I just didn't have deep enough pockets.  Some stuff definitely sounded better in a pure analog chain, but I just didn't want to listen like that all the time wearing out records.

[ralph]

Not necessarily recommending it, but I have cleaned old vinyl in the dishwasher.  And it worked for me.

Ralph

[Paully]

Dude, I hear you.  I am heavily into vinyl for new releases and I often wonder if it really isn't idiotic.  Way, way more expensive for each issue that you buy along with the equipment needed to play it.  I enjoy vinyl and the vinyl experience and it makes my hobby more enjoyable for me.  But I sometimes wonder if the cost versus benefit for newly minted music on vinyl truly justifies the cost.  Given the kind of music we are into I really do sit back and think that there is no way that vinyl is cost justified given that the difference between the CD and the record is often non-existent to my ears, other than the pops and clicks that CDs don't have.  Oh well, I am addicted now.  Get away before you are too!

[ramicio]

Haha, I did get away.  I sold all my records for a fraction of what I put into it.  There were some new good, limited edition re-masters/releases in there, too.  I am just going to give away the turntables I have.

[Thoburn]

I tried vinyl.  I didn't care for it much.  For one, I didn't care to spend a whole lot on a table.  I had a newer Technics table with a p-mount cartridge, but replaced it with one from Audio Technica. 

I have not seen it reported much. Kind of like a social desease at a Catholic school. But, I find it is many times more expensive to get vinyl equipment that brings out the best in vinyl. My VPI Scout II setup cost 3 times what I paid for my Lynn Genki CD. And when I can scrape together the money I plan to get a Lyra Delos cartridge which all by itself cost as much as my Lynn CD player. Is it worth it? That is up to the individual. And, as it is true that some CDs are much better sounding than others, it is even more so with vinyl. YMMV. Just my opinion.

[porcupunctis]

I, like many, sold my dear collection of vinyl back in the early 90's.  Lot's of great, early prog like Genesis, ELP, Moody Blues, Yes, and others.  All very well cared for like priceless gems.

A few years ago, I purchased the cheapest turntable I could find (an old Marantz) just to use as a demo at school.  I make a horn out of rolled paper and scotch tape a sewing needle to the small end.  The kids are blown away that it really makes fairly nice, recognizable sound.  It's a great into to analog vs. digital.

Since I had this thing, I took a listen to an old record (I think is was ELP's Tarkus) and despite being a cheap turntable with a worn out cartidge and an old record, it sounded really good.  It was dynamica and engaging.

My current system is still relatively humble.  I have a Pro-Ject Expression III with a Sumiko Blue Oyster cartridge. This feeds into a seduction, then foreplay, then SEX amps, then full-range horns.  Here is my list of why vinyl still has a draw:

1.  Some effort is required, which somehow gets you more connected with the experience.  You have to unwrap, clean and then cue the thing very carefully.  It is like a ritual.  You have invested something into your 20 minute listening session.

2.  Album covers and art are tangible, hold in your lap kinds of things that you can absorb while the music is playing.

3.  Motion.  There is this physical thing moving that causes the music to play.  Mesmerizing.

4.  Most important, it just sounds darn good.  You're getting the real-deal analog impression of the original studio sound.  You get the dynamics, the detail, and the smoothness that only vinyl will give you. 

Yeah, it lacks ease of use.  You can't set up a three hour play list and let it run.  The "clicker" generation will go crazy that you can't jump to another song the very second you get bored.  Instead, you are invited and encouraged to enjoy the album as a whole piece without interruption.

I'm an "album-centric" kind of person.  I want that whole album experience, so vinyl works well for me.  If you've grown up with an ipod in your hand, I don't think you will understand what you are missing.