News: There are just a few of the new Bottlehead DACs left in the first production run. Check out the project in our new Digital section on our products page
November 23, 2014, 09:50:32 am

Author Topic: Bottleneck speaker competition (MD/VA/DC/DE/PA)  (Read 10376 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline RayP

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 221
    • View Profile
Bottleneck speaker competition (MD/VA/DC/DE/PA)
« on: June 20, 2011, 12:37:48 am »
If you have been reading the thread about the Bottleneck Russian line stage competition, you will see that we started a discussion about a possible speaker competition for next year. We are looking to use a relatively inexpensive 4" full-range driver that will go well with a bunch of cabinet styles. The idea is that we all use the same driver but with different box styles (or no box if appropriate).

Steve will pick the driver that we use, but I think it would be a good idea to get some comments and suggestions for him to consider in making his decision.

David mentioned his concern:
"I was thinking about the choice of speaker for next year's competition... I don't recall the technical reason for it, but there are drivers that work well in horns and drivers that work in bass reflex type of enclosures.  I wonder if there is a driver that will work in either type of enclosure.  Otherwise we may end up with a bunch of very similar cabinets. "

At the meeting, Tony suggested that a 3" driver might be better.

My first suggestion is that when the speaker model is announced, those who plan to enter should buy their set of speakers straight away so that we are all using the same model, version, batch or whatever.

My second suggestion is that entrants should build their cabinets asap so that the speakers have time to 'burn in', or whatever the technical term is for speakers.

Comments and suggestions would be appreciated.

ray




Ray Perry

Offline Jim R.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2077
  • Blind Bottlehead
    • View Profile
Re: Bottleneck speaker competition (MD/VA/DC/DE/PA)
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2011, 05:29:28 am »
Ray,

Picking a driver wll necessarily restrict the range of possible design types as the Qts of the driver rally is what determines what kind of cabinet is reasonable.  Results outside those parameters could result in either bad sound or in worst case, even a damaged driver.

One alternative approach may be to specify one or more parametrs such as baffle width, olume of cabinet, etc, and then specify a maximum price and say that you can use any 3" or 4" driver you want that will work within those parameters.  This puts a bit more challenge in it as one would have to conceptualize the design and then pick an appropriate driver and live with it, or one could pick a driver and then designa and tune a cabinet to it.

I only say this as this would leave a lotof room for individual creativity.

Of course open baffle designs won't work with a specified volume parameter, but one could also specify a maximum baffle area for an OB type.

Of course, this is your competition and I have no real say in how you want to do things, but the approach I've outlined I think should give the designer/builder a lot more room for experimentation with ifferent approaches.

Just my two cents.

-- Jim
***************

"The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other
test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong
until either the machine or your mind is changed."



- R. M. Pirsig

Offline RayP

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 221
    • View Profile
Re: Bottleneck speaker competition (MD/VA/DC/DE/PA)
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2011, 10:04:05 am »
Thanks for the interesting reply.

Perhaps another way to do it would be to specify a price maximum per driver eg under $40 or $50 as on a certain date. We know prices change and there are occasional sale prices.

We had already discussed whether there should be an overall cost limit per speaker and had decided just to specify the driver cost, not the box cost.

ray
Ray Perry

Offline ssssly

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 305
    • View Profile
Re: Bottleneck speaker competition (MD/VA/DC/DE/PA)
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2011, 06:37:15 pm »
Could pick 2 or three drivers and require an entry using each driver or have a hand full of drivers and allow entrants to select from a specified list.

Offline 2wo

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 797
  • Test
    • View Profile
Re: Bottleneck speaker competition (MD/VA/DC/DE/PA)
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2011, 05:17:04 pm »
how about pick a box size in terms of internal volume. Maybe equivalent to one of the Parts Express enclosures, for those who don't want to build from scratch. I bet we can include open baffle. Topic for discussion.   

 Load it as you like.

 Rather then pick a driver, set a Dollar limit for driver(s) and crossover parts. Lets skip terminals, wire and such. Lets not go too low, as I would like to have a usable set of speakers at the end, rather then just an entry. Topic for discussion.

What do you think?...John               
John Scanlon

Offline RayP

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 221
    • View Profile
Re: Bottleneck speaker competition (MD/VA/DC/DE/PA)
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2011, 01:42:02 am »
How about when we meet at Fritz's place in October, we have a discussion and make a decision then. In the lead up to the meet, it would help if those who are interested could start to discuss and recommend drivers (along with specs and prices) so that a decision can be made on how we are going to do this.

ray
Ray Perry

Offline dbishopbliss

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 279
    • View Profile
Re: Bottleneck speaker competition (MD/VA/DC/DE/PA)
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2011, 08:26:41 am »
On one hand, I like the enclosure idea.  Everyone buy the same PE enclosure (.25, .38, .75, whatever) and then load it with drivers.  Maybe put the limit at $250.  The competition would then be on choosing drivers, crossover points, components.

On the other hand, choosing a single driver means that the competition would be about building an enclosure.  However, we could still allow people to augment the designs with other drivers.  For example, even though the Jordan speakers I have are "full range", they sound better with the Aurum Cantus ribbon tweeters.  This way, we could still have a range of different approaches to using the same driver. 
David B Bliss
Bottlehead: Foreplay I, Foreplay III, Paramour I w/Iron Upgrade, S.E.X. w/Iron Upgrade
Speakers: FE127E Metronomes, Jim Griffin Jordan/Aurum Cantus Monitors, ART Arrays
Other: Lightspeed Attenuator, "My Ref" Rev C Amps, Lampucera DAC

Offline castlesteve

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 44
    • View Profile
Re: Bottleneck speaker competition (MD/VA/DC/DE/PA)
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2011, 12:05:10 pm »
If you have been reading the thread about the Bottleneck Russian line stage competition, you will see that we started a discussion about a possible speaker competition for next year. We are looking to use a relatively inexpensive 4" full-range driver that will go well with a bunch of cabinet styles. The idea is that we all use the same driver but with different box styles (or no box if appropriate).

Steve will pick the driver that we use, but I think it would be a good idea to get some comments and suggestions for him to consider in making his decision.

David mentioned his concern:
"I was thinking about the choice of speaker for next year's competition... I don't recall the technical reason for it, but there are drivers that work well in horns and drivers that work in bass reflex type of enclosures.  I wonder if there is a driver that will work in either type of enclosure.  Otherwise we may end up with a bunch of very similar cabinets. "

At the meeting, Tony suggested that a 3" driver might be better.

My first suggestion is that when the speaker model is announced, those who plan to enter should buy their set of speakers straight away so that we are all using the same model, version, batch or whatever.

My second suggestion is that entrants should build their cabinets asap so that the speakers have time to 'burn in', or whatever the technical term is for speakers.

Comments and suggestions would be appreciated.

Ray

   I only just saw this thread! You guys have been busy!
     I like the idea of a not to exceed price for the driver as it will give a lot of options. The driver should be a current model and widely available. On the other hand i do not agree with restricting the cabinet to a PE box as this is too restrictive. Speaker performance is hugely influenced by cabinet design. If we are going to go with a fullrange driver then most of the crossover work is eliminated right away. This  leaves cabinet design as the biggest factor. If we take that away, then the only differences will be drivers and damping! Lets agree on a price per driver and go from there. i would be comfortable with $150 for the drivers. The cabinets don`t have to be pretty and can be built out of any materials you like.
 





Offline 2wo

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 797
  • Test
    • View Profile
Re: Bottleneck speaker competition (MD/VA/DC/DE/PA)
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2011, 06:03:46 pm »
Freedom of driver and enclosure choice. I like the idea, it is getting on Independence day.

 I was not keen on a common  driver. On the other hand, I have pretty much forgotten everything I never knew about speaker building to begin with.

 Maybe  ask Steve for a few recommendations, Rather than to chose just one driver. I think that would limit enclosure possibility's. How about a few PE or Madisound, offerings just to get the ball rolling...John       
John Scanlon

Offline debk

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 436
    • View Profile
Re: Bottleneck speaker competition (MD/VA/DC/DE/PA)
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2011, 11:02:52 pm »
I like the idea of just a cost limit for the drivers and crossovers ( if used).  Let the cabinet be anything the designer wishes.

Deb
Debra K

2CH system:
Eros Phono Stage
BeePre with BeeQuiet, Prsvane black bottle 300b
SR45 monoblocks, EML mesh 45 tubes
Sota Sapphire, Rega RB1000, Kiseki Purpleheart Cartridge
Bob's Devices SUT
Emotiva ERC-1 CD
Emotiva XDA-1 DAC
Cambridge Audio iD100 Digital iPod Dock
Orca and Orca sub

Offline dbishopbliss

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 279
    • View Profile
Re: Bottleneck speaker competition (MD/VA/DC/DE/PA)
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2011, 02:37:01 am »
Sorry for the off-topic post, but my daughter just cracked me up...

She asked, "Why does that person have a Britney Spears icon?" 

I replied, "Look what it says underneath the picture."

Then she asked, "What does he really look like?"

So, I reminded her that John was at the last Bottleneck meet.  She then replied, "Oh... he's not THAT ugly."
David B Bliss
Bottlehead: Foreplay I, Foreplay III, Paramour I w/Iron Upgrade, S.E.X. w/Iron Upgrade
Speakers: FE127E Metronomes, Jim Griffin Jordan/Aurum Cantus Monitors, ART Arrays
Other: Lightspeed Attenuator, "My Ref" Rev C Amps, Lampucera DAC

Offline Grainger49

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6475
  • Nixies Are Cool ! !
    • View Profile
Re: Bottleneck speaker competition (MD/VA/DC/DE/PA)
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2011, 05:47:46 am »
  .  .  .    
I replied, "Look what it says underneath the picture."   .  .  .  

I don't have children so I didn't know that it was Britney Spears.  Cute, but very young.  

And I agree without seeing him, John can't be THAT ugly.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2011, 02:10:18 am by Grainger49 »
Grainger Morrison, Audio Salesman 1966-1976

VPI HW-19/Souther Tri-Quartz (Grado Sonata-1)/Eros/FP-2/Paramours (1) with MQ Iron (upgrades to all), Blumenstein Orca/Dungeness Speakers - PS Audio Regenerator
[img width=635 height=111]http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg7/Grainger49/Signature/GiveLife

Offline 2wo

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 797
  • Test
    • View Profile
Re: Bottleneck speaker competition (MD/VA/DC/DE/PA)
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2011, 06:06:51 pm »
Gee, thanks guys.

Might be time for a change...John
John Scanlon

Offline castlesteve

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 44
    • View Profile
Re: Bottleneck speaker competition (MD/VA/DC/DE/PA)
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2011, 07:53:20 am »
  I`ve been giving this some thought and have come up with this.

  1/  Everyone has to use a currently in production 4" or smaller fullrange driver. This gives a chance to those who have little experience designing crossovers.
  
  3/  Supertweeters / tweeters can be added using crossovers.
 
  4/  A dollar amount will be established for purchasing drivers, including tweeters and crossover components.

  5/  Enclosures are up to the designers and any materials may be used. Premade boxes may be bought and used. Otherwise designers must build their own designs.

  6/  Terminals,stuffing, damping materials, feet etc will not be included in the fixed dollar amount.

    i want to encourage as many novices as possible to take part in this competition. This is why we should look carefully at the dollar amount. To keep it interesting we should make it low enough that if one decides to go with a multi driver configuration, they will have to buy a lower quality set of drivers compared to going with the single driver setup.


Offline RayP

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 221
    • View Profile
Re: Bottleneck speaker competition (MD/VA/DC/DE/PA)
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2011, 09:12:31 am »
This sounds reasonable. One point to ponder might be positioning of the speakers when they are auditioned. Some may do better well out from a wall, but a BIB would benefit from a close to wall position (as I understand it). I suggest each builder can nominate where their speakers should be positioned.

I think we need a decision about the $$ limit fairly soon since I read that TB neo prices have jumped dramatically. I am fine with $150 but $100 will work as well for me. Incidently, I think we should have shipping not included in the price.

I also think we will need to pick a date to set the components cost. I suggest the date in October when we meet at Fritz's place so we can get an idea of how many would plan to enter. This would also encourage us to build our entries well in advance so that they get a chance to break in well before the competition date. All entrants would have three months from now to decide what driver they want to use.

Naturally, we will probably need to have prizes for best looking and ugliest. I suspect I will be favourite for the latter already.

John of course will bring the Britney model. I had wondered who that girl was, now I know. My daughter played one of her songs for me a few years ago and I thought she sounded a bit like how a balloon sounds when you let the air out quickly. But that was only one song, of course.

ray






Ray Perry